Joe_Bates_Saga________________________________________________________29__ 29. Chapter Jay looked at his buddy. "Yeah, Yeah, except for the hair, I guess maybe you do sort of look like her." He exclaimed. "Do you think she's attractive?" Joe asked carefully. "Attractive, yeah, sure, absolutely. She's beautiful, almost angelic looking, in maybe a quirky kind of way." Jay said, laughing. "Quirky? Just what the hell does that mean?" "Oh, I don't know exactly. She acts kind of weird sometimes, but then everyone on that show is a bit weird I guess. She is beautiful, that's for sure." Jay was trying to choose his words very carefully. "So you guys think I've started looking like some quirky woman on a TV show, huh?" Joe asked, not expecting an answer. "Hey, I can't help it. You just do," Jay said, laughing. They finished their lunch and then went down to the garage. They got in the rental car and Joe drove them to the Honeybone offices. When they arrived, they walked into the reception area and told the person behind the desk who they were. She cleared them on down a long hallway to another reception area. This was where Mr. Peterson's office was. Joe introduced himself to the young lady behind the desk. "Hi. I'm Joe Bates. This is a friend, Jay Logan. We have a meeting with Mr. Peterson." "Hello Ms. Bates, Mr. Logan," said the young woman, eyeing Joe carefully. "Pleased to meet you. I'll tell Mr. Peterson you're here." She punched some buttons and spoke softly into the tiny headset she was wearing. "You can go right in." Joe again felt the burn of self-consciousness as he walked to the office door. He was becoming quite accustomed to the way he looked and felt now, but the feeling still hit him whenever he knew he was going to be looked at carefully. He looked down at his clothes and smoothed his skirt, carefully adjusted the collar and checked his chest. The soft mounds there suddenly felt much bigger than they were, and Joe could actually feel his nipples where they rubbed against the bra. He hoped that they couldn't be seen, but the relatively thick cloth of the dress hid everything well. His appearance was attractive, but dignified, he thought. Mr. Peterson was standing behind his desk when Joe entered. He walked out from behind it and held his hand out to Joe. Joe shook it and then introduced Jay. "Mr. Peterson, this is my friend Jay Logan. He's been a great help to me so far. He's an attorney, but I hope you don't hold that against him." Joe smiled. "Mr. Logan." Mr. Peterson shook Jay's hand and eyed him warily. He obviously didn't know how to take him. "I hope we can work this problem out," Mr. Peterson said to Jay directly. "I think we can." Jay could feel the tension in the air. "Jay has been my best friend for years," Joe said. "I hope you aren't interpreting him as some kind of threat." "Joe, have they been treating you, all of you, acceptably? Is there anything you need? Anything at all we can do?" Mr. Peterson asked. He was obviously saying it "for the record." "Well, I think everything is going about as fast as it can." Joe said. "You look quite, er, healthy, are you in any pain, or anything like that?" "No. I think everything is OK. I've just changed a lot," Joe said, smiling at the man. "They've told me what happened. Are you absolutely sure that the GPS caused this?" Peterson asked. "We're not sure of anything yet," Joe said. "But I think we'll find out." "I hope so," Mr. Peterson said as he walked back behind his desk and sat. "Please be seated. I'd like to talk a few minutes." Joe sat in one of the overstuffed chairs. Jay sat next to him. "So you just woke up one morning last week looking this way?" Peterson asked. "Are sure you weren't taking hormones or anything like that?" "Well, no, of course I wasn't, why would I do that? Most of this happened overnight, but there are still changes taking place. I can actually feel them." "And it doesn't hurt? There's no pain or other problem?" Peterson asked. He was obviously very interested in Joe's health. "No. Absolutely nothing like that. Everything is much more, er, sensitive, but there is no pain. It feels, I don't know, sort of normal, I guess." "What about the others? I understand there are four of you," Peterson continued. "They've all experienced basically the same thing. Dave Skinner is married. I think it's affected him even more than the rest of us. It's a little hard to relate to a wife when you're like this." "Just how extensive are the changes, if I might ask." "Extensive?" Joe looked at Peterson. "I think can say this, the only thing still male are my memories, and maybe some of my habits. They tell us that even our genes have been altered, damaged is how it was described, and that's what has caused our bodies to feminize." "Genetic damage?" Peterson asked. "In what way?" "Well, I'm not the expert here, but apparently our normal XY chromosomes have been altered, they now appear XX, like female genes. That's probably the reason our bodies have changed like this, and changed so quickly." Joe explained the phenomenon the best he could. "And do you anticipate that a way can be found to change you back?" "I really don't know." Joe said. "I think they're still trying to figure out how it occurred in the first place." "The truth now, Joe. What do you really want Honeybone to do about this?" Peterson asked. "Mr. Peterson, for now anyway, I think everyone's doing all that can be done." Joe had expected this question. He continued. "Please just don't give up on this, or the project for that matter. I think this can be worth much more valuable than a GPS system, even if it isn't reversible, but especially if it is." Peterson looked at Joe. "Call me Pete. Just what exactly do you mean by that, Joe?" "Well, the other day, when I was at a clinic in San Diego, I met a few people who are having problems like I have now, but they've been like this all their lives. They feel like they were born with the wrong body and it gnaws at them constantly. Doctors like Benjamin Krell attempt to help these people with therapy and sometimes surgery. I guess it helps, but it's nothing like this. This changes everything," Joe said. "For some people, I think this could be a dream come true." "You said one of you were married, what's she, he, er, what's ah, Dave Skinner, what's he doing about it?" Pete asked. "Well, right now, Dave still lives with his family. Three of us have completed paperwork to legally change our gender, so I guess you can refer to us as women. Dave didn't, since he was married, he couldn't without getting a divorce, and I really don't think he wants to do that if he can get back." "Do you prefer that I address you as a woman?" Pete asked. "You can do whatever you like," Joe said smiling, somewhat embarrassed. "At first I wanted to deny what happened to me, But now I guess I'm getting used to it." "Won't you have to readjust again if we can change you back?" Pete wondered. "I guess I will, but I'm sure it'd be easier to get used to being male again. I mean I've got thirty years' experience at that." Joe said, smiling. "Don't take it the wrong way, Joe, I didn't know you before, but you're quite attractive the way you are now," Pete said. "Thanks. I'm getting used to it, and I've got to admit, sometimes it is kind of interesting to look like this." "But, let's not forget that what happened was caused by job related genetic damage," Jay interrupted. Mr. Peterson looked at Jay. "Just what do you think we should do, Mr. Logan?" "I just want to remind both of you that Honeybone is ultimately responsible for all job-related injuries, no matter how unusual they might appear." "Do you feel that our friend Joe here is unusual?" "I have never heard of anything like this happening before, have you?" "No, No, I guess I haven't," Peterson agreed. "Well, Pete, Mr. Bates here has been inflicted with some serious problems," Jay said. "Think about it, and try to forget what his body looks like now. While on the job, he was subjected to radiation which permanently damaged his chromosomes, the basic building blocks of his physical being. This injury has caused significant changes to his body. He can no longer function as a normal male. Technically, he's impotent now. In fact, the damage has actually caused his male genitals to atrophy. Why, he can no longer even urinate normally. Further, it has caused him to lose weight and considerable strength. In almost every way, he is no longer the normal, healthy man he was just a week ago." "Jay, I don't..." Joe attempted to stop him. He certainly didn't like to be referred to as impotent. Maybe everything was a lot different now, but it seemed that impotence was hardly a proper description of his affliction. "I'm not trying to threaten anyone," Jay continued. "But I think we all must consider exactly what happened here. I feel that's my responsibility to my best friend." "Yes, you're right of course." Peterson agreed. "If it can be determined that Honeybone is responsible then we will do what we must. But on the other hand, I must be sure that Honeybone is responsible." "Mr. Peterson, Pete, I want you to understand that I'm not out for my personal gain. I can't speak for the rest of the guys, but I just hope that the Company doesn't desert us, either," Joe said. "Joe, Joe, I don't think you've anything to worry about in that respect. Honeybone is a people company, we're not about to let any of you go, you're all far too valuable to lose anyway." Peterson smiled. Hearing the president of the company say those words were comforting to Joe. Although he wasn't particularly worried about his job, he wasn't sure what that job would be now. With Peterson on his side, he had less even less to be concerned about. "One thing, Joe, before you go back to Arizona, could I get you to stop by at this clinic? I'd like some of our doctors to examine you, a sort of second opinion, if you will." Oh great, Joe thought, another physical exam. He had been subjected to four already in just a week. Would everybody in the medical profession get to look at his changed body? Mr. Peterson gave Joe a paper which contained an address and phone number. "I think I'll come down to Phoenix in a few days to meet each of you personally and see what's going on for myself." "Is that all you wanted?" Joe asked. He was expecting more to happen. "Do you have anything to add? I think I have to see all if it for myself. The whole thing seems intriguing." "Yeah, I guess it is," Joe agreed. "It has been a pleasure to meet you, Joe," Pete said, "and you, too, Jay. Don't worry, Honeybone will stand behind your friend, and I appreciate your concern." They shook hands once more, and then Mr. Peterson escorted them to the door of his office. "I'll be seeing you in a few days," he said. Joe and Jay said goodbye to Mr. Peterson's secretary. It was obvious that she was dying with curiosity. Joe just smiled at her and walked on. Last week he might have asked her to dinner. Now, he just followed Jay down the hall to the entrance. "Peterson's secretary is sure a looker, isn't she?" Jay said. "Yeah, I guess so." Joe agreed. He had paid as much attention to what she was wearing as to her physical appearance. "You guess so?" Jay said, looking at Joe and grinning. "What's wrong with your eyes, pal?" "It isn't the eyes, Jay. It's everything else, I guess. I'm impotent now, remember?" Joe said, grinning. He could remember the old feelings, but they just weren't the same anymore. "Yeah, yeah, I guess you can't help it, can you?" Jay looked into Joe's eyes and smiled as if he understood. When they arrived at the front desk, Joe asked for a phone. The receptionist pointed to the couch and the phone located at the end table. Joe took a seat and opened the small sheet of paper. He punched in the numbers, and waited for an answer. "Dr. Morgan's office," a feminine voice said cheerfully. "Hi. My name is Joe Bates," Joe said, not sure how to start the conversation. "I was asked by Mr. Peterson of Honeybone to give Dr. Morgan a call." "Oh, yes, Ms. Bates, Dr. Morgan can see you at ten tomorrow morning." Joe looked at his wristwatch. It was only two in the afternoon. They would have the entire afternoon with nothing particular to do. "Ok. I'll see you then." Joe said, and then hung up. "Well, now I have a doctor's appointment for ten tomorrow morning. Can you stay another day?" "Why not? We maybe can have some fun on this trip." Jay grinned deviously. "Yeah, I know what kind of fun you have in mind." "What? And you don't?" "Well, like it or not, I don't go around thinking with my dick, at least not anymore," Joe said sarcastically. It was so true, although he did somewhat look forward to more exploration of his new sexuality with Jay, somehow sex just didn't control practically every waking thought as it did when testosterone had him in its fierce grip. "What do you want to do, then?" Jay asked. "I don't know, I think we should go back to the hotel. I better call Linda like I promised. We can discuss what we want to do after that." They drove back downtown to the Radisson. When they got to their rooms, Joe closed the door between the rooms and called Linda's office. "I'm here, and I'm still alive," Joe told her when she came to the phone. "Will you be home tonight?" "No. They have me scheduled for another physical tomorrow morning." "Another examination?" Linda asked. "Aren't you getting tired of that?" "Sure. But I guess Peterson wants another opinion or something. Really, everything is going ok, I guess." "You'll be staying overnight then?" Linda asked. "Jay too?" "Yeah. We're at the Radisson. It's a pretty nice place," Joe answered. "Do you have separate rooms?" "Of course. Why do you ask a question like that?" Joe wasn't going to bring up the interconnecting door. "Oh, I don't know, just wondering. I know you two were best friends. I didn't know how you'd handle being together now, with the way you've changed. I mean, I've seen the way he looks at you." "And so you think we would want to sleep together?" Joe asked. Linda was obviously much more observant than he gave her credit for being. "Joe, it's your life. You've got to live it. I just want you to know I'd understand if you want to see what it's like." "What it's like? What are you talking about?" Joe asked incredulously. He knew exactly what she meant. He wondered if he should ask about the silk chemise. He decided against it. "If I could show you what being with a man is like, I would, but I can't, at least not yet anyway. If you and Jay... Well, I just want you to know I understand," Linda said haltingly. "And you think that's what I want?" "No. That's not what I mean, it's just that, I mean, I can see what's happened to you, how you feel. It would be understandable for you to want to experience everything about being a woman. I know you've got to be curious." This woman can read my mind, Joe thought. No wonder he had always thought they were so right for each other. "Well, we've got separate rooms. If something happens between us, maybe I'll tell you about it," Joe said, trying to make the whole idea sound far fetched. He didn't know if it would be prudent to tell her if anything did happen, but could he keep it a secret even if he wanted to? Linda seemed satisfied with that. "I'll miss you tonight. I've been getting used to having someone in my bed every night." "I'll miss you, too," Joe said, "but I'll be back tomorrow." "Bye," Linda said. "I love you Joe Bates." "See you tomorrow." Joe hung up the phone and stared at the mirror over the desk across the room. What was happening to his life? Here he was, sitting in a hotel room, wearing a dress, talking on the phone to his girlfriend, his fiance, with his best friend waiting in the next room. When would everything settle down? And what path would it take? Was he really destined to start a new life as a woman, maybe with Jay, or Linda, or somebody, maybe even some other male? Is that what his life was to be? Would he have kids with Jay? He tried to imagine what being a mother would be like. It was almost impossible to picture. Sure, it was likely he was now physically capable of conceiving and giving birth, but could he stand being a mother to a newborn? He went to the television set and switched it on in an attempt to get his mind off the whole concept. The low volume of the television must have been loud enough for Jay to hear, because Joe had only lain back on his bed when there was a knock on the connecting door. "It's not locked," Joe called. Jay came into the room. He saw his friend resting on the bed. "So, what are we going to do this afternoon?" Jay asked. "What's the excitement in the Minneapolis area?" "I really don't know," Joe said. "I've only been here a few times. I've been to this hotel, Honeybone, and shopping in the stores around St. Paul." "Do you want to go looking around?" Jay asked. "Or we can just stay in here the room if you like." He grinned. "Damn it, Jay. Is that really all you think about?" Joe asked, laughing. "No. It's not all," Jay answered, a wicked grin on his face. "But it's the only important thing." "Maybe you should try the machine, too. You might suddenly find that there really is more to life." "Name two other things." Jay said, snickering. Joe looked at his pal. He knew there was no way he could argue his point. The problem was that his sex drive was changing along with his perspective of the whole idea. He knew he still enjoyed sex, now with either a male or a female, but it seemed that it took something to get him going now. His sex drive was no longer running at fast idle all the time. The physical part actually felt just as good this way too, he considered. Maybe the mechanics were a little different now, and would take some getting used to, but sex was still there when he wanted it. It just no longer permeated every thought. "Ok. I guess it is pretty important," Joe conceded, not wanting to argue. "I don't think I would want to try the machine, that's for sure." Jay said. "I admit, I do have some curiosity about what it would be like to have a body like that, but I think I'll pass on actually trying it." Joe looked at him. "But you think it's OK for me though?" "Hey, I didn't make it happen to you, did I?" Jay was right, of course. It wasn't his fault that all this had happened to Joe. Joe knew it too, but he just didn't like the way Jay spoke about his situation, as if Joe had any choice in the matter himself. "I'm sorry, Jay. Sometimes I guess I get a little short when I think you're teasing. Of course what's happened to me is not your fault. So what would you want to do today?" "You pick something; I'll follow you," Jay suggested. "Ok. Let's go look around in some of the stores for a while. Then we can go to the gym and I'll whip your butt at racquetball." "You want to go shopping?" Jay asked, amazed. "Those hormones are sure affecting your head, aren't they." Joe grinned a big grin. It was unusual for him to ask to go looking in stores. He had never done that before, except maybe grudgingly with Linda or some other girl friend. But now, he just thought he'd like to see what the clothes looked like in the stores in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. They were near some of the best shopping in the city. "Hey, humor me, will you. Besides, you might even find that it's kind of fun." "I doubt that. But if that's what you want to do, I don't really mind." Joe got up and walked passed Jay as he went to the dresser. He patted Jay on the butt as he walked past. He had never done anything like that to any man before, but just felt the need, so he did it. He turned and grinned at Jay. "Now, get out of here for a few minutes while I change clothes." "Can I watch? I'll be on good behavior." "Get in your own room, and close the door behind you," Joe said. "All that stuff can come later." Although he was as interested as Jay in exploring his newfound femininity, it was still kind of embarrassing, and he wanted to postpone it all as long as he could. Tonight would be soon enough. Joe removed his dress. Standing in his slip, Joe went to the bag to look for something to wear. He found the new jeans and a blouse. It was a bit casual, but he figured it would do for the rest of the day. Maybe he could find something in one of the shops around here. He wondered if Jay would mind shopping with him. Of course not, he decided. Jay seemed to like just being around him. What was it? Was he really that sexy, or whatever? He didn't think so. Sure, he knew he looked female enough, all right, but sexy? He didn't feel sexy. He was now getting used to the way he looked and was no longer quickly driven to sexual excitement by just ogling his own curves or his changed genitals. Along with his acceptance of his new femininity, Joe was slowly beginning to think like a woman, too. He removed the half slip and the pantyhose, stepped into the jeans, and pulled them on. He noticed they fit him differently from his male pants. They went well above his changing hip line. He ran both hands along his hips, tracing their shape. What would his body be like when this all stopped? When would it stop? He took the blouse and put it on. Gazing down as he fiddled with the (to him) backward buttons, he saw the noticeable cleavage of his breasts. The blouse fit pretty well. Joe wondered if his chest was really still getting bigger, like it seemed. Would this shirt, this blouse, even fit him next week? Joe found his socks and Reeboks, and put them on again. He went over to the mirror. With the jeans and blouse on, he was now wearing the most masculine cloths he had, at least that still fit him. They may be more masculine than the dress, but he still didn't look like a guy, that was certain. He went to the bathroom and brushed his hair again. He could feel the rough denim rubbing his legs as he walked. It felt so much different from the slip against his pantyhose. He realized he was starting to get accustomed to the feel of feminine clothes. Joe was ready. He found his handbag and new poplin jacket, put the jacket over his arm, and looked in the mirror again. Did he look too masculine? Why was he worried about that? He decided that everything was ok. Hell, he was really a guy anyway, wasn't he? Joe figured Jay would have been knocking on the door by now, but he wasn't. Surely he was ready to go by now too. He decided to try a knock on the connecting door. "Are you ready, yet?" Joe called out. "Sure. I'm just waiting for you. Come on over." Joe opened the door and went inside. Jay was sprawled on his bed watching a movie on the television. He was fully dressed and grinned when he saw what Joe was wearing. "Well, you sure look different." "Do you think this will be ok?" Joe asked apprehensively. "Sure. It looks great to me. I guess I've just never seen you in jeans before, at least since you've been like this." Jay grinned. "Turn around." Joe turned away from Jay, looking back at him as he remained on the bed. "What's wrong?" Joe asked worriedly. "Not a thing. Not a thing. And your butt isn't too big at all." Joe spun back around immediately. "Ok. Ok. Are you ready to go, or do you just want to lay there and stare at my ass?" Joe demanded, trying to sound irritated. Jay got off the bed, the grin never leaving his face. "Ok. I'm ready. Where do you want to take me, anyway?" "I just want to look in some of the shops. Maybe I can find something I like that the stores back home don't have." "God, Joe, listen to yourself. You sound just like a woman." Joe looked straight into Jay's eyes. "I know it. And that scares me to death," he said, smiling. They went out and walked down the hallway and took the elevator to the floor where the sky walk was on. As they left the building they were in, they entered the glass walled sky walk and looked down on the traffic filled streets. Joe went to the side and looked out the windows. He put his hand on the wooden railing. Jay placed his now larger hand on top of Joe's. Joe looked down at it, then pulled his hand away. "I'm sorry. I just thought maybe you wouldn't mind." Jay apologized. Joe looked at his friend. "I don't mind. It's just hard to get used to the whole idea of all this." He smiled and put his hand on top of Jay's. They just stood there and gazed into each other's eyes. Nothing was said, but a lot was communicated. Neither could understand the new feelings that were coming over both of them. "Let's get going," Joe said. They walked along the wide, well lighted aisles, looking in the shop windows. When they came to a shop selling women's clothes Joe stopped and looked at the mannequins in the window. "Do you like that?" Joe asked Jay. "The important thing is do you like it, isn't it?" "Yeah, I guess it's all right. But I want your opinion." "Well, it's nice, I guess. Would it even fit you?" "Hey, I don't know. Every time I try something on, I'm always surprised at what fits and how it looks on me. Actually, I think it's kind of fun." "There's no doubt about it, your brain has become female, just like you thought," Jay teased. Joe looked at his friend and grinned. "I think you might be right." He walked into the store and Jay followed. The saleswoman was alone in the store when they came in. She went right over to Joe and asked if she could be of assistance. "Yes, please," Joe replied, trying to sound as ladylike as he could. "I would like to try on a dress like the black one in the window." "You look like a ten," the woman said walking to the rack along the wall. She took a hanger from the rack and went to the back of the store. Joe didn't know if he should follow or what. "Was there something else?" she called when she noticed Joe wasn't following. "No. I'll be right there," Joe walked along, and Jay continued to follow. "Maybe you better wait out here," he told Jay, winking. "Yeah, sure. I'm sure I'll find that will be great fun." Jay said with mock sarcasm. In the fitting room, the sales woman stood by as Joe removed his blouse and jeans. Joe could feel the flush come to his face as he stood before this stranger wearing only bra and panties. But she didn't seem to notice his embarrassment as she helped him try the dress on. The dress fit Joe's shape perfectly. The fitted bodice traced the outline of his trim but growing bustline. Joe went to the full length mirror and looked at his reflection. The woman staring back from the mirror was amazingly attractive. Forgetting for a moment that the saleswoman was standing there, watching, Joe ran both hands along his breasts and down his hips as if needing to prove that the shapely body inside the dress was his. The sales woman was surprised to see this attractive but shy young woman do that. She said nothing but her surprise was evident. Joe didn't notice, however, he was completely engrossed in his own appearance. "Perhaps your husband would like to see it too," The woman said aloud, breaking the moment. Joe gave the woman a questioning look. Husband? Oh, yeah, Jay. "Yes. You're right." Wearing the silky dress with athletic socks and no shoes, Joe went back out into the shop. Jay was seated next to the fitting room door and looked around when Joe came out. His look was that of impressed surprise. "What do you think?" Joe asked. "It's you." Jay said it in a teasing way, but he obviously meant it. "Yeah, I like it. I think I'll get it." He went back into the fitting room and the sales woman followed. She brought a belt, and a scarf which she suggested that Joe try with the dress. Joe looked at her suggestions and tried them on. He agreed to purchase them also. He then removed the new clothing and put his jeans and blouse back on. The sales woman took the purchases to the counter and looked at Jay as she asked, "Will this be cash or charge?" Joe retrieved his charge card from his handbag and handed it to the woman. He carried the hanger with the dress and the bag with the accessories as he and Jay continued down the mall walkway. "Are you just going to buy everything you see?" Jay teased as they walked along. "Not everything, but I've decided, If I want something, I'm going to get it." "Hey, I don't blame you," Jay agreed. "You look good in this stuff, and If you want to wear it, why not? I think Honeybone is willing to cover it, and I guess you'll be needing stuff like this if you're going to stay like you are." "Don't I know it. It seems I'm always finding something else that I don't have and that I need." They went along the walkway, looking in the stores, and stopping every now and then to let Joe examine something closely, or to try it on. Usually, he ended up buying it and before long, both of them were burdened with packages. "Do we have to go back to the rooms and unload, are will you be finished soon?" Jay asked his friend. "I guess we have enough. For today anyway. Don't you just love that white dress?" Jay looked at his pal. Joe seemed to be turning into a real shopaholic. "Yeah, it's real nice." They slowly made the trek back to the hotel rooms. On the way they discussed how they would spend the rest of the afternoon and evening. Jay wanted to play racquetball, and Joe agreed. He really didn't have any real urge to play, since he knew he felt he was no longer competitive with his friend, but he did need the exercise. Alone in his room, Joe changed clothes again, this time to stretchy lycra exercise wear. The skin-tight garments felt great to wear, and he liked the way he looked, but they were body hugging, and he was too embarrassed to leave the room. Although the running bra minimized his new breasts and stopped everything from bouncing, he still pulled a contrasting crop-top over his head. Next, he stepped into a pair of nylon running shorts. His hair was still too short to really get into his eyes, but he slipped on the matching head band anyway. Joe topped it all off with the terry cloth cover-up. He took his new gym bag, with the new smaller racquet, and placed it on the bed, then lay next to it to wait for Jay's knock on the door.